Camp Sekani

[Wobbly Bob]

Attention SDGA Members
There will be a Members Meeting this week

Where; The old Season Ticket or the new Tailgater (in front of Value Village)
When; Thursday, November 17, 2011 @ 7:00 pm
Why; Talk about the new property at Camp Sekani
What would you as an SDGA Member like to see at Camp Sekani?

2012 Memberships will be available

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by General Scales

I have played the Jamboree course and the gold course twice now and I see both the awesome and the terrible.

In my opinion, I think that a 27 hole with two tees and two pin locations for each hole would be a much more worthwhile investment for disc golf in Spokane. With 27 and two pads, you could make a Gold and Am course without having to force the player to play some, excuse my french, shitty holes.

For example, the gold course has a few holes that seem very forced just to make a second 18. Then again, there are some holes up there that are beyond cool and difficult. I hated 5 the first time around and now I'm on board with it. Even though it's a potential danger because you can't see the bikers on the bottom trail before you make the up hill drive. The second par 4 that plays up the hill (7 or 8 I think) is the best hole on the course. It's fair to both hands, it's difficult if you try to play the giant drive. It's not in danger of knocking anybody out thats on a bike.

The bottom line in this rant. I think that the 27 hole layout would be a better option. You could get a better use of the property, not play so many holes that feel forced and generally have a world class course that draws people to play it. That is, if you make a 27 that has multiple options. I would rather see this course take a year or more to get right then make it in 6 months and spend the next 5 years bitching about it.

P.S. Jeremy, I thought you hated thumber holes :P There are so many holes on the gold course that are thumbers if you have the arm for it.

-Stuart-

I can easily disagree with a 27 hole course being the best option. The reasoning behind that disagreement is because the city see's exactly what you see. The reason I designed the course the way I did. They have been opening up new land for us to use. By putting their bike trails in danger we have successfully lobbied to get different unused chunks of land to use for our course. See if you only take what your given and you don;t ask for more than that's all you get. Our members on this forum only see what's directly in their face and do not see the big picture. Nothing has been set in any kind of stone but people are freaking out as if it were. This whole process is about relationships and communication and feedback from the bikers mostly.. Just calm yourselves golfers. There is a method being used here and I promise you it's all worth it in the end..

SO if hole 9 is your favorite Were there any other good holes, or not so good.. Here's my favorites.. hole 1, hole 5, hole 9, HOLE12!!! hole 14, HOLE 15!!! HOLE 18!!! If you don't like the holes with the exclamations than I'm a little concerned

As far as thumbers are concerned I try to design them out of every hole but it is nearly impossible.. If the shot is the shot than I'm not going to make it a worse hole just to get rid of a thumber.. But with that in mind you do realize that the thumbers that are on the course are for people that can REALLY throw one, no cheapies..

SO on to this last minute club meeting I love the fact that everybody needs to waste their gas and time to run to a meeting that takes place 2 days before a club event. A 1 round club event that will be over about 2:30 with plenty of time to talk about what people think after they have made an informed decision. This goes right along with having candidates do a speech about what they will do if elected RIGHT AFTER everybody votes. I LOVE MANIPULATION!!!!!!!!

[Yoduh]

There are 2 main reasons why two 18 holes are advantagous to our cause. The first is for tournaments. We can play two rounds in one day and allow more golfers to participate. The second is for rec play. Having a world class hilly course will keep a lot of rec players away. It will allow the more serious players a place to throw without the strollers and and the folfers. It's a place where they will get discouraged and head back down the hill in some instances. Should make for a bit more of an exclusive place to play in the city..

[General Scales]

I will agree with the two 18's make for a better tournament layout. Still would like to see multiple pads per hole though on each of the 18's. No reason there couldn't be two gold courses in one location. 18 is awesome on both layouts.

[prospect]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

... By putting their bike trails in danger we have successfully lobbied to get different unused chunks of land to use for our course... I LOVE MANIPULATION!!!!!!!!

I can see that...nice work

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by prospect

I can see that...nice work SO on to this last minute club meeting I love the fact that everybody needs to waste their gas and time to run to a meeting that takes place 2 days before a club event. A 1 round club event that will be over about 2:30 with plenty of time to talk about what people think after they have made an informed decision. This goes right along with having candidates do a speech about what they will do if elected RIGHT AFTER everybody votes. I LOVE MANIPULATION!!!!!!!!

How is it that we go 8 months without a members meeting and then we get 3 days notice for a meeting.. I'm sure this hasn't been posted at any of the courses nor has it been emailed to any of the club members. If only our PR guy actually knew how to relate to the actual Public

[Yoduh]

As in to people with jobs and prior commitments who might need more than a few days notice to show up like say a whole week?? Not to worry though the charter is written so that if the board doesn't like what the club decides than they can just out vote it and change it..

[coryreu]

Jeremy, all you simply need to do is state the obvious and say you're not going to be at the meeting.
Giving yourself, and anyone else who is willing to listen, reasons not to go to the meeting is smart on your part. Examples: "Shouldn't because it's 2 days before the Jam this Saturday." "Shouldn't because it's a waste of gas and you should see my work before you speak." "Can't because there was no notice." Whatever your reasons, it can't discredit the purpose of the meeting.
I'd do the same, if I thought there was no chance to win a debate for approval prior to your project.
Why not attend the meeting and see if you can receive approval through legitimate means? It can't hurt, can it?

[Sean Johnson]

The really important question is whether or not there will be any voting going on at this meeting. Club members can get together and hash it out with an hours notice for all I care, but we need more notice and more methods of notification before any vote should happen. The direction we take at Camp Sekani will have lasting and significant impacts on the Spokane disc golf community and we shouldn't cut any corners in the process.

We need to find a way to contact all members of the club and give them the time to plan around the meeting. I hate to say it, but posting something on this forum simply isn't enough. Many members don't even get on this site and those that do don't always do it regularly enough to catch a meeting on such short notice. If there is any way I can help in this matter, just let me know. I don't mind calling or emailing anyone (or everyone for that matter) in the SDGA in an effort to get the word out.


As far as the course goes-

I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be cutting a damn thing until the whole club (not just the board) has a chance to vote on our direction at Sekani. I also agree that neither Jeff or Jeremy have any real authority to be making final decisions about the course design at Sekani.

However, we shouldn't overlook the qualifications that they bring to the table. Jeff may have ruffled some feathers and possibly exceeded his authority over the last year, but the results that he has produced have been impressive and really encouraging. And yes, I know that he is not the only person putting in work around Spokane.

Despite whatever misgivings anyone may have, Jeremy is a fantastic course designer. DBD at Farragut is quite simply one of the most technically complete and balanced courses that I have ever played. I may not be as well traveled as some, but I've played over thirty courses in the NW and it sits comfortably in the top three alongside Milo and Hornings Gold.

I also want to remind the board to practice what they preach. There have been many examples of the board ignoring, degrading, or countermanding the wishes of the club as a whole. The midterm appointment of a board member without popular vote and the handling of the Downriver redesign are the first few that come to mind. When people voice complaints, they are rarely addressed and are often scorned or marginalized.

All I am asking is that everyone keep an open mind and don't let your personal issues get in the way of what could be one of the pivotal moments for disc golf in the Spokane area. We have the opportunity to effectively double the number of public courses in Spokane and have an incredible property to work with, lets make the best of it.

[Yoduh]

The Saturday Camp Sakani doubles event will be on the Jamboree course and it will be a par 57. The course will be roughly 1,200 feet longer and shooting in the 40's is possible in doubles.. very tough to shoot that in singles.. 1000 rated will be about 53 IMHO

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by coryreu

Jeremy, all you simply need to do is state the obvious and say you're not going to be at the meeting.
Giving yourself, and anyone else who is willing to listen, reasons not to go to the meeting is smart on your part. Examples: "Shouldn't because it's 2 days before the Jam this Saturday." "Shouldn't because it's a waste of gas and you should see my work before you speak." "Can't because there was no notice." Whatever your reasons, it can't discredit the purpose of the meeting.
I'd do the same, if I thought there was no chance to win a debate for approval prior to your project.
Why not attend the meeting and see if you can receive approval through legitimate means? It can't hurt, can it?

I have to work.. I'm a referee and I cannot switch my matches on this short of notice. I know others that have switched work schedules to attend meetings and others who would of if they found out early enough.

[Yoduh]

I really appreciate Sean's take on the situation... Except the part where you called me an excellent course designer

[Stimpi]

Originally Posted by tomw

So, what happened @ the meeting. ??

It's tonight.

[jshrack]

its tonight

[Sky Pilot]

I’ve been getting these e-mail messages about having Stimpi lead (chair) the Club meeting tonight. Jon, Gordy, Lyle and Bob all want him to lead it (on the surface) because he’s supposedly ‘neutral’.

Dictionary.com defines neutral this way…
neu•tral
   [noo-truh l, nyoo-]
adjective
1.
not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.
2.
not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

Now re-read these statements that Stimpi has made on the Forum and make your own decision as to his ‘neutrality’.

November 10th
I played the Jamboree course today, and was very disappointed. Many "dumb" holes, with a couple of "worst holes ever". One involved a huge, steep climb to a nice flat boulder/teepad. The shot was about 200-250ft. across a gully, with another steeper climb down into the gully and back up the other side. Definitely not worth the climb. There were better holes there, but I'm sure they would have encroached on other "designed" holes.
I was pretty disturbed by all the cutting Jeremy is doing, creating fairways where there are/were none. I understand he has permission from parks to cut anything "hand-around", which I take to mean about 2" in diameter. Many trees cut were quite larger. All this work on an undesigned course. Why? Does Jeff and Jeremy really feel this is the best use of this property? Man, I hope that's not where they're going. It'll be very disappointing as I feel Camp Sekani could be a great course. Nothing great about it so far.
They seem invested in two 18 hole courses, but I'm not sure that's the best idea. 27 holes, or one huge 18 would seem to make more sense.
I hope Jeff and Jeremy don't continue in the vein they are going. I wouldn't support SDGA club funds to build this course as it sits and I hope the other members who have been left out of this development feel the same way. If Jeff and Jeremy want to have the whole say, let them start their own club and raise their own funds and then they can do whatever they want. With MY club, I want a vote.
Furthermore, I would like to see the Club distance itself from the bushwhacking that's being done there. It's not being designed to use "natural corridors" as disc golf courses normally are, yet the cutting is being done to satisfy this precarious design of Jeff and Jeremy's.

November 12th
You're right Tom. The SDGA used to be a viable organization, who built courses, improved those courses, and was considered the "best club in Washington". Then along came our Steward, Jeff, and the club became the Crum show. If Jeff didn't want it to happen, it didn't happen, and if Jeff wanted something to happen, it happened, no matter what the members and Board had to say about it. "the Board" hasn't been able to agree on anything since his inception.
Yep, he's getting something done, all right. We all wish we knew what it was? And we wish we had some input.

My Comments:
Notice that there is no 'balance' of opinion in his comments. Mostly (if not all) negative without any or (little) positive to say.

You guys are trying to make me laugh right? Let’s drop the ‘political correctness’ mask and tell it like it is. These statements do not qualify someone as ‘neutral’. Truth is, many of you are my opponants, and haven’t wanted me there from the beginning. You've actively campaigned against me, and have been salivating for me to quit since I started. Some of you constantly invalidate, put down, and attempt to frustrate my efforts. I have to forgive you constantly. If you want examples I can share them with the world if that’s what it takes.

You guys are all worked up about ‘cutting’ right now, right? Concerning ‘cutting’ at Sekani, at least we’ve been given permission to do so. I had Gordy tell me to look the other way when he was doing some illegal ‘cutting’ on hole #5 at High Bridge. Eric Brown and Troy Farley were actually caught on film by News channel 4 cutting at High Bridge after I had said that cutting wasn’t allowed there. I wonder how many other Board members approved this. And by the way, this isn't private information - I saw it on TV. Gordy also participated in illegal cutting on new hole #14 at Downriver. I saw the ‘before’ and ‘after’ results, as the ‘hole’ design idea was his. You can ask him how many other times he’s wielded the pruners on our courses since we were disallowed from doing so.

It’s also interesting to me that there wasn’t a big ‘frenzy’ over the development of People’s Park – an area I helped to establish and hoped would succeed. I spent hours down there working on learning the land and developing a ‘first design’. I don’t remember anyone complaining about the fact that I did this. Some went down there later and altered it, but I still wanted people to try what eventually Lyle and I laid out. It didn’t work out, but we didn’t need a ‘project manager’ to slow everything down.

So what happened with the Downriver design contest? I submitted a design – as did several others in 2009. After Chirs's design was approved I went to the City to tell them we had a new design and that they would need to come down and review it and approve it. I fully expected Eric our Facilities Coordinator to implement the design that was voted in at the election meeting of 2009. Nothing was ever implemented. It eventually just became a bad memory in people’s minds. I wonder if other Board members encouraged Eric to shelve it. I eventually got frustrated and said that if this wasn’t going to happen then at least perhaps we can install alternate pins. Though we supposedly have a committee to establish these – I’m aware of little progress.

I honestly believe that some on our Board do not want Sekani to happen in ANY form. That’s why Bob and Gordy suddenly tried to resurrect People’s Park which had been abandoned for about 6 months. I rescued the last bucket in September. I saw two others buckets and one of them was broken and had a bees nest in it. It was a waste. If some of you may have thought that I’d got some of the buckets for Sekani from there – think again. None of them were available to be used.

I believe that private course owners in some cases may be threatened by the development of ‘wonderful’ potential courses that are free to the public. Hey, if I had my ‘own’ course and there was a lot of developing competition I might not like that too much. This is simply called ‘conflict of interest’. I believe that this is in part the explanation for why efforts to improve our local public courses are often frustrated.

I can’t believe that Stimpi said that in the past we were considered to be the ‘the best club in Washington’. By whom? I got involved in 2009 precisely because I saw the incredible neglect at High Bridge. Gordy himself admitted at the election of 2009 that all they'd done in '08 was "put garbage cans at Downriver". Concerning High Bridge - there were rumors circulating for over a year of a possible ‘expansion’ under the Bridges. When I got involved I was able to settle the rumors with just a few phone calls. why hadn't someone else done that? In '07,& '08, the facilities’ at High Bridge we’re in obvious disrepair and neglect. Perhaps we were the ‘best club in Washington’ for some other reason that I’m unaware of, but not because that course was functioning up to par.

Let’s be real. There’s no neutrality in Stimpi’s appointment to ‘chair’ the meeting tonight. And if he has political asperations, that makes him even less neutral.

Fact is, I wasn’t even asked if I could make a meeting tonight. It was just ‘announced’ by Bob that we were having it. I guess since they got someone else to ‘lead’ it they’re saying that I am not needed.

It is true though, that if there is not a quorum present (4 or more Board members) that some Board members may need me to be there, so that they can vote against me.

And Stimpi, if I’ve ever done anything to hurt you personally, please forgive me. I’ve always thought you were a pretty good guy.

I was going to make an important positive announcement tonight about Disc Golf in this area – but now… I’m not sure that this is the right time or place…

I feel like I should be watching out for a crazed mob with pitchforks and torches.

Sky Pilot

[jshrack]

Who could be an impartial Chair?
Stimpi was suggested but seems partial from his past comments.
Maka was suggested but seems partial from his past comments.
I personally can't stand the way either side is handling this situation, so I will not suggest myself.

Who might be a neutral moderator...
Might we invite Tom Walker?
Or Sean Johnson?
They both seem to have constructive comments and positive perspectives.

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by jshrack

Who could be an impartial Chair?
Stimpi was suggested but seems partial from his past comments.
Maka was suggested but seems partial from his past comments.
I personally can't stand the way either side is handling this situation, so I will not suggest myself.

Who might be a neutral moderator...
Might we invite Tom Walker?
Or Sean Johnson?
They both seem to have constructive comments and positive perspectives.

I would offer but I can't make the flight.

This needs to be said. It's kinda funny how when confronted with the promise of descension Jeremy was the only one willing to stand up for what he thinks Not one word from Our Fearless Leader. (Damn moose and squirrel) If Jeremy had even considered stopping or at least slowing down this all could have been easily averted

Remember
This is just a fact finding meeting!!!! Intended on doing just that gaining insight from the members in attendance. Expecting any kind of final decision at or from this meeting is a fools errand at best.

[Stimpi]

I never claim to be impartial. I'm totally partial to the Spokane Disc Golf Association and it's role in the development of disc golf in the area. The Sekani courses are being presented as an SDGA project, yet only one board member, and one member at large, are privy to the information around this project yet tons of permanent development is being done.
That's not the way our club has ever operated in the past, and the City Officials we've dealt with appreciate that fact.
The meeting needs to be facilitated by someone, and everyone already knows where I stand. I'm not going to monoplize the meeting, just see that all the issues are addressed and everyone who want to speak will get a chance to speak. Robert's Rules of Order y'know.
See you soon.
Stimp

[Stimpi]

I thought the meeting went well. Emotions often ran high, but everyone kept their cool and the discussions were pertinent.
No motions were presented, nor votes held, due to the meeting being held in an Over-21 establishment and all members couldn't, legally, be present, not to mention the members who may need to bring young'uns to the meeting.
The one thing agreed upon by all present was the announcement of another Members Meeting to be held on Wednesday, November 30th, at 7:00pm, at a Family establishment to be announced later.
From what I understand, the topic of said meeting will be the future of the Camp Sekani Disc Golf Course property. The club membership, and the Board, will discuss a direction to proceed, and appoint a Project Manager to oversee the clubs wishes for the development of this property, from design to completion. Duties would include being a liaison between all concerned agencies (SDGA, Park Dept, Bike Club, Beacon Hill Agenda folks, etc..) assisting the Designer(s), organizing work parties, and more I suppose. So I think we should gather many members together for the meeting and see what direction we want to take with this promising area.
Thanks to all who showed up tonight.
We even drew Jack Wardian over from North Idaho. Thanks for coming, Jack.

[friable7]

It was an okay meeting tonight. Unfortunate that there were issues with the venue and short notice. However, I am pleased that we ended up having an open forum with no voting (maybe the Congress should give it a try!). Sometimes a bloodless "airing it out" is the best medicine. Anyway, my hope is that we can just all chill for a couple of weeks and let the "ground rest". There is certainly no lack of energy and investment into get this thing whipped into the "gold standard" for our region- or even better. Just a matter of pulling it together and getting the energy focused. Hope to see all at the next meeting. Tim N.