Camp Sekani

[coryreu]

Originally Posted by Stimpi

I played the Jamboree course today, and was very disappointed. Many "dumb" holes, with a couple of "worst holes ever". One involved a huge, steep climb to a nice flat boulder/teepad. The shot was about 200-250ft. across a gully, with another steeper climb down into the gully and back up the other side. Definitely not worth the climb. There were better holes there, but I'm sure they would have encroached on other "designed" holes.
I was pretty disturbed by all the cutting Jeremy is doing, creating fairways where there are/were none. I understand he has permission from parks to cut anything "hand-around", which I take to mean about 2" in diameter. Many trees cut were quite larger. All this work on an undesigned course. Why? Does Jeff and Jeremy really feel this is the best use of this property? Man, I hope that's not where they're going. It'll be very disappointing as I feel Camp Sekani could be a great course. Nothing great about it so far.
They seem invested in two 18 hole courses, but I'm not sure that's the best idea. 27 holes, or one huge 18 would seem to make more sense.
I hope Jeff and Jeremy don't continue in the vein they are going. I wouldn't support SDGA club funds to build this course as it sits and I hope the other members who have been left out of this development feel the same way. If Jeff and Jeremy want to have the whole say, let them start their own club and raise their own funds and then they can do whatever they want. With MY club, I want a vote.
Furthermore, I would like to see the Club distance itself from the bushwhacking that's being done there. It's not being designed to use "natural corridors" as disc golf courses normally are, yet the cutting is being done to satisfy this precarious design of Jeff and Jeremy's.

If Stimpi, one of the most knowledgeable and well traveled disc golfers in Spokane, is saying that the course is not good. That's bad. Somehow the club needs to nip this in the bud ASAP! The club needs to have a meeting and vote this down and get Tom Schot up here to make this a world class course, while the terrain is still prime.
Why are there permanent changes being made to a preliminary course design?
Jeff and Jeremy, if you're willing to listen, I beg you, please stop what you're doing to the land. You're acting quite hastily. My two cents.
Wait... I have another cent to spend.
Jeff, when you initially posted your report on Sekani, you offered the opportunity to "would be" designers to come in and try to come up with a better design, which you doubted. Why are you not willing to take on the option of having an "already established" and well known designer come in and help the cause, at little to no cost to the club? Wouldn't that be going against your word?

[Wobbly Bob]

I implore Jeff and Jeremy to quit cutting at Camp Sekani. The Board has not agreed to any layout as of yet. With no layout approved it seems that the cutting should be considered the actions of outlaws. After reading the last few posts on this thread I think it is time to halt all cutting and put this project into the hands of the SDGA Board. I am documenting the cutting that is being done and there are a bunch of trees that have been cut that are bigger than 2" in diameter. If the Parks Dept. knew we were cutting these larger trees what would they say? Jeff himself said that the work being done was preliminary and any final design would have to be Board approved. Cutting out fairways is not considered preliminary work and no design has been approved.

[Yoduh]

All of the branches that have been taken are less than 2'' in diameter. The dumb hole you are referring to will be changed with a shovel and a bit of work. A 27 hole course is an awful idea, dumb is a good word to describe the use of the property in this matter. You wanna see dumb holes, walk out into your yard and look around.

[Yoduh]

Furthermore I have approval to trim everything that has been trimmed. We had a long meeting with the parks official. Please refrain from passing judgement until the work we are allowed to do is done. Speaking of Tom Shott I have a great story about him. He spoke with a city council woman about a potential course that he wanted to put in. She was interested in letting him put in the course and she said she'd do some checking on it.. 3 months later she contacted him to talk to him about going forward with the project. She asked him how close he was to being ready to start the project. He said he was done with the front 9 and was in the midst of building the the middle 9 of the course.. She thought they were going to have to do an environmental study and that it would be at least another 6 months before he started.. You should have seen the forest he cut this course out of.. It was thick as could possibly be. If you were off of the fairway you were in the crap. The course was pretty good Had about 2 or 3 stupid holes.. It ranked 3rd out of the 4 courses I played at worlds. I like Tom, one of Gordy's old friends. He is a doer.. He gets stuff done. I've played 272 courses in 30 states. I've played at 5 World Championships and designed what Christian Dietrich calls the 2nd best course behind Milo Mcgiver in Estacada Oregon. Milo is on most people's top 5 courses in the world list for those who don't know.. So please, lets not pass judgement until all the horses have come in. Next Saturday I am hosting an event. If its as awful as it can be when you play it.. Come back and post such on Saturday evening, my thoughts are that you will probably be in the minority.

[Stimpi]

You're right Tom. The SDGA used to be a viable organization, who built courses, improved those courses, and was considered the "best club in Washington". Then along came our Steward, Jeff, and the club became the Crum show. If Jeff didn't want it to happen, it didn't happen, and if Jeff wanted something to happen, it happened, no matter what the members and Board had to say about it. "the Board" hasn't been able to agree on anything since his inception.
Yep, he's getting something done, all right. We all wish we knew what it was? And we wish we had some input.

[Yoduh]

Yeah right Stimpi... Your funny!! I remember hearing Gordy brag about getting garbage cans in one years worth of work, right before Jeff was elected.. One guy gets things done. A couple are ankle weights and the other 2 have quit a while ago.... anyway


Next Saturday's event that starts at noon and cost's $10 will be pro am doubles!!!!!

[Wobbly Bob]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

All of the branches that have been taken are less than 2'' in diameter. The dumb hole you are referring to will be changed with a shovel and a bit of work. A 27 hole course is an awful idea, dumb is a good word to describe the use of the property in this matter. You wanna see dumb holes, walk out into your yard and look around.

Lots of trees (not branches) cut that were larger than 2" but I guess that depends on where you measure the tree. Right?

Are you measuring them at the point that you are cutting them?

[coryreu]

First of all, this isn't an issue about who's gotten the most done in a given amount of time. And it isn't about who's designing credentials give them the right to build design. It's about getting this major project done right and going through the proper channels to get it done.
Secondly, having a meeting with a park official and getting their approval to do something, doesn't mean you just go do it. Minutes from the meeting with the park official should be taken and brought to the attention of the board.( this should be where you break out a tape recorder.)*see below.
Lastly, in regards to the idea of.. wait and see what we've done, and then give your opinion... isn't right. Of course good reviews will be given when people come play this course. It's like sticking a great big, shiny, new toy in front of a kid. They love it every time. Disc golfers have a mutual love of throwing discs into baskets. And if you give them a new place to do it, they love it even more.

*Usually when these recordings of conversations between Jeff and park officials are taken, they get written into a report and posted on these forums, which don't show total authenticity. The report sucks all of the air out of the thread right off the bat. Leaving questions to be answered which never are. Seemingly giving Jeff the feeling of accomplishment to do whatever he believes he has earned the right to do. Yes, he's gotten into the good graces of the city parks officials, which is totally and respectably noble. But that doesn't mean he can act solely on his own agenda. Currently, Jeff is only an informative between the city to the board, when he should be more focused on being a representative and co-worker for the SDGA .

[Stimpi]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

You wanna see dumb holes, walk out into your yard and look around.

That's the difference between you and me. I never pretend that my course is any more than it is. A 5 acre pitch and putt. I suspect your ego feels it could redesign my property into a "Championship" layout like the one you are creating at Crumkani. I hate to tell you this, but that's what it is, your ego, designing this property. Give us (the members of the club and the board) one reason why we should go along with an agenda and design that you and Jeff have been working on, in secret, for months without a lick on input from anyone? and a design that is having a hard time drumming up support?

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by Stimpi

That's the difference between you and me. I never pretend that my course is any more than it is. A 5 acre pitch and putt. I suspect your ego feels it could redesign my property into a "Championship" layout like the one you are creating at Crumkani. I hate to tell you this, but that's what it is, your ego, designing this property. Give us (the members of the club and the board) one reason why we should go along with an agenda and design that you and Jeff have been working on, in secret, for months without a lick on input from anyone? and a design that is having a hard time drumming up support?

Not having a hard time drumming up support Stimpio. You, Bob and Gordy are the 3 people that have had problems.. I haven't heard anything but support. Next Saturday we will see if Championship is going to be an appropriate term to describe the lower course on Sakani. My ego isn't really in this picture as much as my frustration with somebody voicing displeasure with an uncompleted project.. Furthermore I have an even bigger problem with you coming onto this forum to air out your grievances with my actions when you were standing directly in front of my face and saw what was going on. If you would have pointed out your issue of tree cutting I could have easily showed you at that moment the few bigger than 2" trees that were cut, had big bends in them and were already folded over trees. Instead you wait to hit the forum, pretend to be nice in person, talk smack on a forum?!?!? Par for the course in the passive aggressive department, eh Stimp?

Bob There might be a couple over 2 inches but not by much.. I was there meeting with the park guy and he showed me what was ok and 2 inches was not in the parameters.. Tress that are bigger but totally bent over are also allowed to be removed.

Hard to properly record a meeting that took place while hiking all over a hillside and pointing at stuff and talking. Even harder is trying to post notes about such meeting in a meaningful manner. After Saturday I want any kind of feedback I can get. More than interested in having the best possible course as I don't see it as my design, I see it as our design. There have been 6 golfers that have came up and worked and have contributed their ideas to the course we are building. If you want to come give your ideas and feedback you are more than welcome to. I have worked with you before Cory and we have came up with great ideas before.

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

Hard to properly record a meeting that took place while hiking all over a hillside and pointing at stuff and talking. Even harder is trying to post notes about such meeting in a meaningful manner. .

maybe you should have taken your sky pilot with you. He seems to have a photographic memory. or at least his posts read that way

[coryreu]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

I have worked with you before Cory and we have came up with great ideas before.

I need not, nor want not to talk about ideas from the past. My comments are only concerning the ideas about what is happening at Sekani in the present. Which are being acted upon without the proper approval of the board.

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by Stimpi

That's the difference between you and me. I never pretend that my course is any more than it is. A 5 acre pitch and putt. I suspect your ego feels it could redesign my property into a "Championship" layout like the one you are creating at Crumkani. I hate to tell you this, but that's what it is, your ego, designing this property. Give us (the members of the club and the board) one reason why we should go along with an agenda and design that you and Jeff have been working on, in secret, for months without a lick on input from anyone? and a design that is having a hard time drumming up support?

Not having a hard time drumming up support Stimpio. You, Bob and Gordy are the 3 people that have had problems.. I haven't heard anything but support. Next Saturday we will see if Championship is going to be an appropriate term to describe the lower course on Sakani. My ego isn't really in this picture as much as my frustration with somebody voicing displeasure with an uncompleted project.. Furthermore I have an even bigger problem with you coming onto this forum to air out your grievances with my actions when you were standing directly in front of my face and saw what was going on. If you would have pointed out your issue of tree cutting I could have easily showed you at that moment the few bigger than 2" trees that were cut, had big bends in them and were already folded over trees. Instead you wait to hit the forum, pretend to be nice in person, talk smack on a forum?!?!? Par for the course in the passive aggressive department, eh Stimp?

Bob There might be a couple over 2 inches but not by much.. I was there meeting with the park guy and he showed me what was ok and 2 inches was not in the parameters.. Tress that are bigger but totally bent over are also allowed to be removed.

Hard to properly record a meeting that took place while hiking all over a hillside and pointing at stuff and talking. Even harder is trying to post notes about such meeting in a meaningful manner. I will take any kind of actual feedback I can get. More than interested in having the best possible course as I don't see it as my design, I see it as our design. There have been 6 golfers that have came up and worked and have contributed their ideas to the course we are building. If you want to come give your ideas and feedback you are more than welcome to. I have worked with you before Cory and we have came up with great ideas before.

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by coryreu

I need not, nor want not to talk about ideas from the past. My comments are only concerning the ideas about what is happening at Sekani in the present. Which are being acted upon without the proper approval of the board.

Bucket courses have been laid out and played long before the board ever existed

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

Bucket courses have been laid out and played long before the board ever existed

Whats happening now is the exact same thing that happened at People's park when it first went in.. Nobody whined and complained then.. Don't know what the issue is now. Even though I actually designed People's park everybody thought that Kevin designed it. It was a very difficult piece of property to put a safe layout together that flowed, and to make it as difficult as could possibly be on a 20 acre piece of land that has trails zig zagging all over it. Done reading and reacting to certain negative posters on this forum.

[jshrack]

Yoduh, from my perspective, the problem isn't that you have taken the initiative and started designing a course... rather I commend this action! The problem is the fact that you and Jeff did it without allowing local disc golfers any input whatsoever.

minor example: Many of us like the idea of a 27 hole course.

I have heard you complain that the SDGA has lost sight of local disc golf... you took control of a project many of us were excited about, donned your course designer blinders, and left us golfers feeling further removed than before.

At this point, I just see a Giant Pissing Contest with Spokane area disc golfers acting as the urinal.

I hope we can all work to make Spokane Disc Golf the best possible scene it can be.
I am trying my best to keep this in the forefront of my mind and I ask everyone to consider doing the same.

[Gordy #21004]

The issue isn't the relative merit of the proposed courses, it is that Jeff has sought no input
from the Club he was elected to serve.
The SDGA did not elect a Dictator, we elected a Steward to work with an executive board and voting membership.
Jeff was not elected to unilaterally decide for us.

Jaymie Crafts

[LJ Jubner]

It seems to me the project is moving forward without completing the process.
It seems that one group has submitted a design alone. No other concepts were solicited.
It seems one group has taken it upon themselves to decide in favor of the only design submitted
and then started the process of installing holes at the Sekani site.

It seems to me this oversight can be readily addressed if two things happen

• all work at the Sekani site needs to cease immediately
• the process needs to start.

1. solicit design concepts to submit to the Facalites Coordinator who will
2. set deadline for submissions
3. chair review process for decision making purposes
4. actually start final installation

It seems that any effort put forth (past the basic marking of the potential holes) is wasted effort and could actually adversely effect the current relationship with the Spokane P/R

It also seems that no matter what the club will be involved when it comes time to write the check.

As the sagey tomw would suggest."Might as well have it be on good terms then adversarial tones"

[Yoduh]

Happy Birthday Tom!!!! Thanks for your input and would love to see you next week and hear what you think!

[General Scales]

I have played the Jamboree course and the gold course twice now and I see both the awesome and the terrible.

In my opinion, I think that a 27 hole with two tees and two pin locations for each hole would be a much more worthwhile investment for disc golf in Spokane. With 27 and two pads, you could make a Gold and Am course without having to force the player to play some, excuse my french, shitty holes.

For example, the gold course has a few holes that seem very forced just to make a second 18. Then again, there are some holes up there that are beyond cool and difficult. I hated 5 the first time around and now I'm on board with it. Even though it's a potential danger because you can't see the bikers on the bottom trail before you make the up hill drive. The second par 4 that plays up the hill (7 or 8 I think) is the best hole on the course. It's fair to both hands, it's difficult if you try to play the giant drive. It's not in danger of knocking anybody out thats on a bike.

The bottom line in this rant. I think that the 27 hole layout would be a better option. You could get a better use of the property, not play so many holes that feel forced and generally have a world class course that draws people to play it. That is, if you make a 27 that has multiple options. I would rather see this course take a year or more to get right then make it in 6 months and spend the next 5 years bitching about it.

P.S. Jeremy, I thought you hated thumber holes :P There are so many holes on the gold course that are thumbers if you have the arm for it.

-Stuart-